12: Cory Pinegar, CEO of CallForce, on Motivations, Managing Risk, and the Value of Action
Show Notes
Cory Pinegar is the CEO of CallForce, a company dedicated to helping dental offices be more successful.
In this episode you will learn a little bit about what it's like to be a young CEO, what motivates him, how he thinks about risk, and what advice he would give young entrepreneurs. We also discuss what informs his thinking, how he prepares for each day, and what he is doing to make the best of COVID-19.
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Podcast Transcript
The concept of, I really want to make something, and I really want to prove something. And if we're really honest here, and vulnerable, it's probably because in high school, and middle school, and early on, I was never the most athletic kid. I never was the most social, I never was... I didn't have a lot of the attributes that I desired to have. Growing up, I still had great friends, I had a great childhood, this is not a sob story. But if I'm honest, I wanted to be an athlete, and I was not an athlete. I wanted to be the cool kid of the school, and I was not the cool kid of the school. And so, I think I was blessed with and have discovered that I do have some talents. And once I've been able to latch on to those, I've wanted to prove everyone that I can do something.
Welcome to Seeking Excellence. I'm Brett Pinegar. The path to excellence is different for each of us. Seeking Excellence is all about helping you achieve your potential, professionally and personally. I interview leaders and experts that have found their path, that can share insights, that can help each of us break through the barriers that limit our success. My goal is to help each of us live and lead with excellence. This is an episode I've been looking forward to for a long time. I've been thinking about this particular interview since the very first interview I've done as part of Seeking Excellence. Today we'll be hearing from my son, Cory Pinegar. Cory is the CEO of a company called, CallForce. Cory is in his 20s. You'll learn a little bit about what it's like to be a young CEO, like we've done previously, and about the mental sort of discussion that goes inside his head and many the heads of young CEOs and old CEOs alike that are grappling with issues of why they do, what they do, and what motivates them, on how they think about risk. And Cory in particular, will talk a little bit about what really sort of informs his thinking, how he prepares for each day, and how in this crisis of COVID that is ongoing right now, how he thinks about making sure the business remains viable in a post-COVID world. So let's get right into this episode, I think you'll really enjoy it. And thanks again for listening.
[Cory] So, I work in the dental service industry. I got into the dental service industry with CallForce, the current company that I work for in 2016, December of 2016. Previous to that, I worked for a company called Weave, which obviously you're familiar with. And I started there by cleaning the closet. Cleaning the closet morphed into a office manager position, a part-time office manager position while I attempted to go to Brigham Young University. From there, different offered opportunities arose at Weave and I was able to get inspired that my thoughts and my... I guess, what I saw to make a difference could actually make a difference. And I think, that there was a major part. And from there, in 2016, my partner and I were able to buy a portion of Weave's business called, Recall Solutions. And from there, it's been a rocketship of a ride.
It sure has, I think is I've just watched you and observed your success, and your failures, and your challenges, and your opportunities. It's been a wild ride. In fact, just for the record here, we're in the middle of the COVID pandemic. And I think this is probably been the wildest part of that ride so far. And if you think a little bit about crises and how you deal with the challenges that come to you as a leader, COVID is unique because it was really a thrust upon all of us. Meaning it wasn't like you did anything, or we did anything, or... It just happened. And so, sometimes those are the most difficult challenges to deal with, the ones that feel entirely outside your control. And so, first of all, how do you make sense of COVID as a leader? I mean, how do you sort of process it intellectually? How do you think about it? What does it mean for you as a leader?
Well, first of all, the definition of COVID is a changing definition, I think for all of us as leaders and people. Obviously, a few months ago, it was in China and it was a distant problem. And in a matter of weeks, once it entered the United States, I think March 1st was the first reported case in New York, it changed everything.
[Brett] It sure did.
[Cory] In a very, very, very, very short time. And I think that's what makes this crisis more unique than anything else is, recessions and other major issues within our organizations creep in over time, I guess there's a little more foresight into them. But this in a matter of weeks crippled our business and millions of businesses across the country.
[Brett] And I think that many individuals, many organizations, are really suffering mightily right now. And I think that the challenge we all have is, how to sort of stay afloat and to stay ready for when things get better. And so, as a leader, what do you do in order to sort of stay up and to stay ready for when things are good enough that you can relaunch your business?
[Cory] So, I wouldn't consider it a relaunch first of all, I consider this a permanent change especially within the dental industry at least for a timeframe. And I won't dive into it totally, but dental appointments will be different. Dental is seen as one of the better ways to spread a virus. And so, we're going to look at the lengthening of dental appointments. Patients waiting are required to wait outside of dental offices before they can enter. So, our whole business model at least for the next six months and possibly forever, could be slightly different. Now, there's two ways to look at that, win that problem. I guess, comes at you is, do you resist the change that's being forced and stick to the path, or do you begin to morph with it? And I believe, if you begin to morph with it, which is a daily iteration, that long-term, you can come out better and more able to serve and suit your customers. And so for us, we're looking at this as now more than ever, we have greater opportunity to capitalize. And then, that truthfully makes me so excited as a leader.
[Brett] When the early days of the crisis began to emerge, you are very quick to make changes in your business, and many other businesses waited. What was in your mind, the impetus for you? Or what made it easy or at least what made you able to make that change as quickly as you did?
[Cory] he company's job... I mean, there's two roles that I see myself playing as CEO of a company. One of them is to do everything... That's three, let me back it up. Is to be... There's a lot more. But like if I, in my simple brain, there's only a couple responsibilities that I have. First of all, is to take care of our employees. Second of all, is to take care and do right for our customers. And these are not in order of operation, I actually see them as all very vital. And then third is to provide value to our shareholders long-term, and to give them the returns that they are promised and that they seek. And so, to do all of those, we needed to quickly downsize our company so that we could have the cash to continue to operate. Because if we push ourselves to the edge, well, then we have to stop product development, where we have to stop growth, where we have to cut sales. Even though we're continuing to grow, we're not providing value to our stakeholders long-term, our shareholders, we're not doing right by our customers 'cause we can't even serve them. And then third of all, when we do have the opportunity to bring employees back, we wouldn't be there because we pushed it too far.
[Brett] Sure, sure. So all those things are sort of true logically. And I think that, as leaders outside of a business, it's really easy to sort of armchair, or quarterback, or backseat drive another business and say, of course, you'd want to make those changes very quickly. But I think both of us know that in the very act of doing that in a moment, it is painful. It is incredibly painful, it is something you almost want to avoid because of the psychological difficulty of making that level of a change in your business and having the impact on people's lives that you had by doing that. So, how do you sort of get down to the psychological aspects of this in terms of, what did you do that morning when you had to go and you had to lay off a bunch of people, and you had to furlough a bunch of people? And you had to say, "We're not sure when you're going to come back.
Okay, so there is a quote. The founder of Blackstone said, "Truth, even though it's uncomfortable is the best answer." And so we had to look at the business one day and to be honest, first of all with ourselves, and then we had to be honest with our employees. And that's what made it quick and easy. Not easy, but it made it the right decision, is because it's the truth. We were burning thousands of dollars a day, tens of thousands of dollars a day. If we continued to operate, we were not going to be profitable, and we had a very real reality of putting ourselves in a bad financial position. And so we needed to go in there... And to do the right thing for all of those people that I spoke about before, we needed to be honest about the situation.
[Brett] Yeah, yeah. And I think that that honesty and that integrity, it made it easier to make the decision you made and the timeframe you did. When you think about yourself as a leader and the sort of approach you take, how would you describe your leadership? And what's the leadership philosophy you talked about? Being true, and following truth, and making sure that it's always true to yourself, and true to the company, and people are a central part of that. But are there other key sort of philosophies or principles that really sort of drive you as a leader?
Well, first of all, you have to know who you are as a leader. I'm very, and probably really more, now, as we continue to drive down this road, more aware of who I am, and where I have flaws and where I have strengths. So first of all, I have to know that I'm more of a visionary leader, I'm more of an idea guy than an integrator. And I actually have probably more of a desire now than ever to be a better integrator. But systems and processes are not my forefront strength. And so as a leader, first of all, I have to know what I'm good and not good at. And I have to find people that help provide ample strengths to my weaknesses, and that's been a major part of our organization growing, is because we found a well-rounded team where you're challenging each other when you need to be challenged, but you also support each other during the growth.
[Brett] Let's think about the genesis of that. That's a really evolved sense of leadership. There are a lot of people that are out there saying, "I want to be successful, "I want to be the best, "I want to grow the most, "I want to be the wealthiest I can be." There's something very different about what you're saying here and saying, "I'm really driven by something very different than that. "It's about knowing myself and being my best self." So, roll back the clock, where did that start for you? Where did that sort of begin? And what was the genesis of that important notion for you?
I mean, it probably started when you gave me $100 for Christmas when I was eight, and I bought Costco Stock, let's back. I mean, if we're really going to roll it back, that's really where my desire to make something. But my number one desire and--
[Brett] For the record here, so, I've got this picture of Cory holding up five $20 bills in his hand with the biggest smile on his face, you could possibly imagine. And maybe we'll put that up here in the podcast so that you can see Cory when he was just a little bit younger. But, so that was the beginning. And that really maybe motivated you to go out there and to do something, and to realize the power and the benefit of capital, but what about this sense of kind of being your best self and where did that come from?
I think it really has been a desire 'cause at the end of the day, you have to stare at yourself in the face. And so, money aside, money definitely has played a factor at some portions in my life, but it's not, or even is a thought in my brain over a second a day when I go to work. It's the concept of, I really want to make something, and I really want to prove something. And if we're really honest here, and vulnerable, it's probably because, in high school, and middle school, and early on, I was never the most athletic kid. I never was the most social, I never was... I didn't have a lot of the attributes that I desired to have. Growing up, I still had great friends, I had a great childhood. This is not a sob story. But if I'm honest, I wanted to be an athlete. And I was not an athlete. I wanted to be the cool kid of the school, and I was not the cool kid of the school. And so, I think I was blessed with and have discovered that I do have some talents. And once I've been able to latch on to those, I've wanted to prove everyone that I can do something.
[Brett] Yeah, yep. So it's about the, proving yourself that you can accomplish the things that you want to do, and that you're driven to be your best as you do that. That's awesome. So let's think a little bit about your day-to-day. So, leadership is often created. And the preparation for leadership is often the critical aspect of making a leader what they are. So, you got to be able to deal with stress well, you've got to be able to prioritize your time well, you've got to be able to make time in the moment, things that you were not expecting to make time for just seconds beforehand. We were talking a little bit about this upstairs. And by the way, here we are in the bunker. This is the COVID bunker right here. So if you're looking at the concrete walls back here, you'll notice that this is--
[Cory] It's a custom-built podcast.
[Brett] This is a custom-built podcast studio in the basement of the Pinegar household. But anyway, when you think about the preparation you go through to sort of get ready for your leadership day, are there some things you do consistently that make it easier for you to be your best?
Well, every night before I go to bed, I write down a list of what are the most important items that I need to tackle tomorrow before I go home. And I cannot leave the office until those are tackled. And that's a major part. And it's not just getting 10 before one, but what are the most important fires that will provide value again, to what we talked about before. And when I get into work, it's about providing value to those people that we work with.
[Brett] Yeah, yep. So you start the night, before you've got a list you're preparing here, how do you sort of begin the day in the morning here? Do you have a morning routine? Are you more of an evening preparer?
Definitely an evening preparer. Personally, I'm a night owl. I'm not wanting to be, but have just been able to work late into the night. So I get a lot of my, I would say, personal work stuff, reviewing, communicating with people done in the night. And in the day is dedicated team meetings, working with members of our team, and then obviously meeting with partners and different affiliates of our organization would be 90% of my day while I'm at work. And then going home, you have to shift gears into reviewing reports, providing feedback, responding to emails, and communicating with your team.
One of the things that this crisis has really taught me is the importance of data and being aware of the trends and the issues before they actually hit. So I think, quantitatively we're looking much more at what are the known people that have been affected with COVID? How is that changing? Is that flattening out? Are we seeing a reduction? Are deaths down? All these things that are important to reopening of the economy. But more broadly, data is really critical to every business today. And this is just sort of a punctuated version of that. So when you think about, as a leader, and you're reviewing your reports in the evening and getting ready for the day tomorrow, what kind of information is most important to you as a CEO?
It would be, I look every night at our daily revenue number one, just to see how we do. And obviously our costs from the day before. And information that I see every day is our NPS score, I see the number of sales that went into our organization or onboardings, I have visibility on our cancels, so I have a dashboard of major reports that I am responsible for that is on the main screen of my computer.
[Brett] Yep, now, you put a lot of effort into that if I'm not mistaken. This is something that isn't just--
[Cory] I've years in the process.
[Brett] Yeah, you've just been working at it. And you actually built a lot of it yourself, being in the team built it. It's not sort of something you just sort of picked off the shelf. That's a big investment. And for a small business, I think one of the big questions that leaders often ask is, where do I make investments versus where do I sort of just--
[Cory] Buy off the shelf.
[Brett] Well, not in buying the shelf, just go do it. Say, I'll invest in that later because right now, it's just not going to make sense. So, how did you make that decision to make it a significant investment in data early on in your business?
So first of all, you would only make that decision knowing that you want to and will go big.
[Brett] Yep.
We first of all, never wanted to build infrastructure to be a single-million dollar business year. And that was just a choice. And so when we sit down and talk about things, we don't think about the scale of hundreds of customers, we think about the scale of thousands of customers. And that's just a thought process. Second of all, and a dangerous comment, we ran for a long time our bank account like a college student bank account, because we were, actual. I mean, our first year in business, we overdrafted our bank account 39 times. I'm sorry, Wells Fargo.
[Brett] Yeah, but you've arraigned in business and you're able to sort of make it--
No, and so those decisions for a lot of people, and I mean, we had a perfect storm. This is a tangent, but when we started our business, I was 22 or 23, I'm not sure, somewhere in that frame. And we could live on minimal amounts of money. And so, when other people start a business at 45 and have to provide health care and minimum wages, I didn't pay myself for the first nine months. And after that, I think I took an $800 a month salary. And so, we were able to instead of being forced to say, okay, pay ourselves more or invest in the business, we are pretty much able to say, okay, buy our Top Ramen and put the rest back into CallForce. And because of that, we've built systems that hopefully are ahead of where we are so that we can scale quicker with relatively less issues.
[Brett] And I think that makes a lot of sense. What makes it even more interesting is that you did that without taking outside investment. And so, you made this investment, you were able to grow the business, but also make some investments in your future. So there's this notion of, I'm going to either hire another salesperson or I'm going to build a system to help me track the future here. And so, there's a short-term and a long-term view that you need to take simultaneously. And as a leader, do you think about, did that come naturally? Or did you think about, Oh, no, we've got to make this investment. We can go from one to 10 salespeople or one to 10 callers, and be able to do that without much work and without a lot of infrastructure, but then we're going to hit a wall. So, how did we and maybe your experience from watching Weave and others sort of helped you in that regard? I mean, did you feel like that was a place where you're able to observe what worked, what didn't, so you didn't have to make those mistakes again? Or did you feel like there were other ways in which you were naturally guided to not make those mistakes of over-investing in things and then having the trouble of not having the infrastructure to support those investments?
Yeah, so first... First of all, naturally as a person, I lean towards over-investing in development and product than sales. And that's actually different than most companies in Utah. And I wouldn't say that's learned from organizations that I've worked at, it's just a preference that I want to be proud of our product every day. So it's come down to that. And obviously, then it's the decision of, okay, we need to sell more and grow more so we can invest more in our product. But everything we do today continued. And everyday, everything that we've done for the last three years has been for the betterment of our product with systems, and service, and reporting.
[Brett] It's making those investments what will allow you to scale. And it sounds like that is your big what or why, that's where you want to go, it's not just be a million dollar company, but to be a very big company delivering a lot of value, making a big difference for the customers you have and the employees that work for you.
[Cory] No, I couldn't agree more. I had a thought to say but it's in one ear and not the other by now.
[Brett] So, one of the things that people that often listen to the podcast asked me is, well, what can I take as an aspiring leader from this podcast that would allow me to become better? And so, imagine we're sitting here with two or three recent college graduates, or people that are in college, or maybe even somebody who is looking for a second career ready to restart to do maybe even a side hustle? What sort of leadership guidance would you give somebody who wants to start a business in today's environment? Especially in the kind of the challenges that we face in a COVID environment?
First of all, that there is opportunity everywhere, right now, everywhere. You just have to be able to find it, and then you have to find the means to take advantage of it. And not advantage in a way that someone else is losing, but that there just really is a lot of great opportunity first of all.
[Brett] Let me just pause there because I think that sometimes people think that, oh, yeah, there's a ton of opportunity. But it's opportunity combined with the action, desire to go out and do something. And an example of this is, I happen to know that you did a little side hustle here that had to do with COVID. And you put together a little plan where you could basically sell hand sanitizer when there were some real constraints for that in the marketplace. But it wasn't just an idea that you talked about, you said, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool to go out there "and find some hand sanitizer, "and then to resell it and package it "for people that would make a difference?" You actually did it. And think about, what was the timeframe between when you had the idea and when you actually were able to sell product?
[Cory] 12 hours.
[Brett] 12 hours.
[Cory] We sold our first product 12 hours after the initial phone call to my partner in the business.
[Brett] So if you think about that, that is, I think the essence of entrepreneurship. You need to be able to take an idea and act on it, do something about it, actually put it into practice. And so the idea, yes, there's plenty of opportunity, and you got to act upon it.
[Cory] Yeah, and this is interesting. So knowing myself, and this comes with a lot of pros and a lot of cons is, if I think there's an idea, I'll do it, and I'll get into trouble by doing it before. I'm more of a doer and an impulsive doer than a, oh, let me think out. I mean, there was no math or like, oh, I think there's demand. It's like, well, throw together a Shopify store and if it goes down what do we lose? $10? Let's see what's in trial.
[Brett] That's the point there, is that, the risk was minimal. Absolutely minimal risk. And so it's all like, the risk wasn't like, I'm I going to fail big and I might... It wasn't that I'm going to go build this enormous e-commerce infrastructure, and hire a sales team, and go out there, and get a factory online in China. You were able to find it in really unique ways that didn't take a lot of time, it didn't take much money, and so it wasn't that your thought was just like, we're impulsive here, but you're able to balance your impulsiveness with the fact that, there was no risk. And that's sort of rural keyed entrepreneurship. So think about that. What other advice would you give to an aspiring leader, aspiring entrepreneur?
To be a doer, to fall on your face. I mean, our first six months in CallForce, I think we sold three offices. I mean, it was just, we sell three offices to five offices a day right now. And the first six months was just slow. And so, don't stop because it doesn't work out of the gate.
So, I work with somebody who absolutely embodies that principle as well. How do you balance that notion of not giving up here basically just, resistance is futile with the fact that you may be going down the wrong path?
Because you... And my opinion is, you have to be iterating as you go down that path. That path is the furthest thing from straight. And I can kind of break that down into a story right now.
[Brett] Yeah.
So, we have many different services or departments within our company. And recently, we started a payment reminders division. Basically, people have amounts that they owe or are overdue at their dental office. And this is a reminder before they get sent to collections. And so, sounded like a great idea. The offices agreed to giving us a large percentage of what we collected. And we are not the collection agency, but we're actually collecting directly into their payment processor system. And it sounded great, and we dived into it, and we are a couple weeks in, and it's taken face falls. Now it's working, but every three days, we're having to meet for an hour and gut systems and rip up roads as an analogy there to make these reminders. I mean, we started out by saying, okay, well, we're going to do a lot of due diligence on these overdue accounts before we make the call. But then we realize that doesn't work because you're only going to get callbacks from 19% of people, fact. And you're only going to reach 20% of people that you call. And so, there's over 60% of these patients that we have done immense due diligence on, we're never going to hear from. And so then, we've had to go back and say, okay, well, let's scrap that. And then let's get the numbers, and then let's dial, and then let's put ourselves in a position where we'll say, "Hey, Brett, you do have an overdue balance." And I'll say, "Well, what is it for?" And we'll actually go into the system and say, "Well, let me tell you "and I can actually share that statement "with you right now." And that's one tiny iteration, but we were not covering how much we should an hour then. But with this change, we're now actually over and we've had to make a ton of tiny iterations. And there's a ton more to go to actually make it work. So if we had driven down that first road, we'd be bleeding money.
[Brett] That' right. So the combination of, never give up and iterate like crazy.
[Cory] And give up at some points.
[Brett] Well, but so, what is it that you learn that leads you to say, this isn't going to work? What are some of the factors that you look at and say, this opportunity isn't worth it? It's not worth the bite, so to speak.
[Cory] Yeah, I mean, there's a couple. It's how much resources can you dedicate to make it work? That's a huge question. Because I mean, can't pump a million dollars down the drain to get $1,000 a month.
[Brett] So there's got to be a market opportunity--
[Cory] Yeah, there's kind of an addressable market.
[Brett] Yep, ep.
[Cory] I think that's a major one, and you've got to look at your organization and to say, does this fit within our brand? In our brand voice. And does this fit within the... Does this align as a needed service that our customers would also want? And if it doesn't, then why are you going down that rabbit hole? So it's got to play into your suite of services. And if it doesn't, is it a sister company?
[Brett] So, you're really going to sort of dig in heavily on the needs of the customer, size of the market opportunity. And if those are right, you're probably going to walk away. But if those are right, and they work, you're going to iterate like crazy the product, the offering, the value proposition in order to meet that need in some way, shape or form.
[Cory] Yes.
[Brett] Fascinating, fascinating. That sounds so simple, and yet, in the fog of everyday, life as a business leader. That's often very difficult to be able to say, what's really driving this? Is that that I've got this great product idea and I'm looking for a market opportunity to fit it? Or by seeing a market opportunity, and then do I find a product that will make it happen? And so often as leaders here, if we start with the product first, we may run ourselves a foul and say, I become more invested in the product than I'm invested in meeting the market need. And by making that investment in the market need first, you're much more likely to be at least somewhat dispassionate about the product.
And I would say that's why we've been fortunate at CallForce, is I have the opportunity to interact with dentists every single day. And we have the opportunity to interact with customers that say, "Hey, will you ever provide this?" And we're making our decisions on what to chase based on data we collect from that, not one dentist, not two, but over months, and over years, certain things have remained consistent, and certain things align with the value that we're trying to provide with as a company. And if it doesn't, it's not going to happen right now.
[Brett] Great, great advice. So, what would be the last piece of advice? Let's say you have one thing to say to this group of aspiring business leaders that are here. If you were to give them one idea that they should walk away with, beyond what you've already said here, so one sort of the parting piece of advice you do have. I'll give one, and then maybe you get one here. So, what I give is, if you're not passionate about it, don't do it. You got to love it. You've got to love what you do, you got to love the industry you're in, you got to love the people you're working with. It is too hard, it is too difficult to do it right if you don't love it.
[Cory] I couldn't agree more. I mean, there's just so many things. And I'm trying to... What's one of the homeruns and I think at a young age, a lot of people have the opportunity and certain opportunities placed before them. And whether or not you succeed, you learn and grow. I mean, I could care but, no, I do care a lot about what CallForce has done, but I'm more readily obsessed about how CallForce and the opportunities have molded me into someone I'm more proud of, who works harder, who is more dedicated, who is more thoughtful and analytical. And so, use any opportunity as a positive. Whether it doesn't work or not, is beside itself. But if it improves you to be a better person today and tomorrow and leads you down a path of success, it's the best darn experience you could have.
[Brett] Cory, that's probably the best way to end this conversation here, is to make every day a learning day, to grow from it, to move forward with what you can do and what you can control, and know there's a whole bunch of stuff you can't control. Thanks for being with me today. It's great to have this experience, and wish you all the best here in the coming days for this crazy crisis
[Cory] Thank you.